Re: MANSON DID 150 HRS. O

DWTripp (dwtripp@aol.com) wrote: : response to hkhenson@shell.portal.com

: AOL's cheesy software again refused to process my response. I'll : summarize:

: Keith agrees with me that CofS management is the likeliest source of the : potential downfall of CofS.

: He gives me an 80% chance of being what I say I am, but not as "recovered" : as dennis is. He asks that I post a bit about clams and markabs in an : effort to reach a 100% rating.

: To which I reply:

: I'll take the 80% Keith. the Boo-hoo's were boring 30 years ago and : they're boring now. the ars crowd loves 'em, but it's ancient history. The : Markabs though, there's a good story there and I'll be sure and let you : know when I publish my book about them.

-10% for this answer.

: I asked: why do you give two shits what CofS does?

: >Territoriality. This is the NET, our village.

: <snip parts about Penet, Erlich and other whiners>

: In other words, since you were here first, you make the rules?

Look it up. That is the definition of territoriality.

Dennis : behaved himself and kissed a few butts, therefore he's no threat?

You are being offensive here on about the scale we have come to expect. Dennis was helpful, contributing to discussions with both deep knowledge of the subject and humor. Both are valued here. Re threat, I agree that Dennis was a major factor in bringing CoS down on the Net, but I certainly do not blame *him* for that. Dennis (for example) did not try to rmgroup a.r.s.

I'm not : about to defend any incursions CofS may attempt to make on the free speech : rights the net affords. On the other hand, it's unlikely you'll find much : acceptence of your concept of the net being somehow propriety because your : group says it's so.

I am reasonably plugged into net culture. I have considerable evidence that the way I stated it has been very widely accepted among the culture since well *before* I became involved with the net. It is so deep that few people are even aware of why they defend the net so strongly.

That's not the way free speech works. But it is cute, : in an anarchistic sort of way.

Sorry, but the net *is* an anarchy. It was designed that way by (of all organizations) the Defense Department. If you would like to understand part of why it works, read *Evolution of Cooperation* by Robert Axelrod, or the article on that topic in the latest issue of *Scientific American.*

: >Vera's attacks on Dennis and the EFF may have netted upwards of 5k

: I noticed a post earlier that EFF has corrected the impression that : donations were tax deductable and instructing contributors to direct their : funds to his attornies. Am I just paranoid, or does that smell a bit odd?

Minus another 10% for suporting Vera's line. I have very mixed feeling about EFF's actions in this matter. CoS is not the most important fish they have to fry, and the example of a judge ordering CAN to give up records must have concerned them. I think they should have stuck it out, because they were building up a lot of support for their stand. They will still get some credit, but a lot of people will see them as whimping out.

: >it is absolutely amazing how many former CofS folks feel ripped off

: That's a general statement which needs hard data to relate it to. A more : accurate staement might be: some former CofS members feel ripped off.

My statement and yours are not in conflict.

As a : former CofS member who doesn't feel ripped off and doesn't blame the CofS : for everything negative in my life, I'd be curious if you actually know : any ex-members other than the ones who come onto the net and cry a river.

No. Over the years I had learned a good deal about CoS from various sources, before this blew up on the net my only knowing contact with a member was one who came to the door a few years back. I must say CoS has been remarkably effective in raising awareness of itself using the net. I have reports of junior high students laughing over HOM copies. (Incidentally, clams are not the worst part. LRH has us evolving from *seaweed* as well. Clams are in the right kingdom at least.)

: >the idea of a world where a significant fraction of the population acted : like CofS >management is seriously depressing

: Well, since we live in just such a world, call your counselor and schedule : an appointment. CofS management is like a revolving door. Today it's : Miscavige, tomorrow some other power-hungry schmuck.

The facts do not jibe with your contention. Hubbard kept the helm till he died. Miscavige has had it since. There seems to be no mechanism other than death to pry someone out of the leadership. Or do you refer to those who Miscavige sends off to RPF?

No different than : most gov'ts or corporations, or PAC's, or thousands of other groups. : You'll not bring them to their knees by rehashing Snow White (over 20 : years old now), or sending money to Erlich, or bawling about the RPF. In : fact, the most you can hope for is that the revolving door swings soon and : they accidentally get someone with a soul at the top.

My bet is that CoS may come apart very suddenly--much like the USSR. It is a money sucking parasite on the whole culture. There may be a few positive aspects to some of its practices (I can't think of any offhand) but the free zone can supply those. Eventually there will be a culture wide immune response, unless those on top grab the loot and flee. Keith Henson