Re: Why do people join?

Wolf Tripp writes: [sorry, the thread this was in expired from my machine and I did not keep the headers.]

Wolf Tripp writes: >stevem@primenet.com (Stephen Marinick) writes:
>stevem@primenet.com (Stephen Marinick) writes: >>The point is that I don't think most people realize what they are
>>The point is that I don't think most people realize what they are >>"buying." It's at best a half-baked pseudo science which will isolate
>>"buying." It's at best a half-baked pseudo science which will isolate >>you from your family and friends. At worst it's a criminal cult which
>>you from your family and friends. At worst it's a criminal cult which >>poses as a religion. Either way, its claims of being a benign
>>poses as a religion. Either way, its claims of being a benign >>organization who's primary interest is to help people is a lie.
>>organization who's primary interest is to help people is a lie. >I'd probably land somewhere away from the criminal cult description.
>I'd probably land somewhere away from the criminal cult description. >At it's best CofS is an efficient organization which, for a fee, is
>At it's best CofS is an efficient organization which, for a fee, is >capable of delivering to interested customers certain enlightenments
>capable of delivering to interested customers certain enlightenments >pertaining to their own personal lives. At it's worst it's a fake
>pertaining to their own personal lives. At it's worst it's a fake >Church that see's itself as the saviour of mankind (which IMHO hasn't
>Church that see's itself as the saviour of mankind (which IMHO hasn't >asked to be saved). All organizations have criminals in them. So are
>asked to be saved). All organizations have criminals in them. So are >you suggesting that all organizations need to be banned because of the
>you suggesting that all organizations need to be banned because of the >actions of that element of society?
>actions of that element of society? Wolf, by now I am sure you know my bias in seeing a lot of social institutions as the results of memes, that is replicating information patterns. In this case the memes were largely dreamed up by LRH, and refined by typical "guru" interactions with those around him. In some cases this feedback gets entirely out of hand, re Jim Jones or the Aum folks. The problem (*not* unique) with all these intense memes is that they decrease the relative strengths of other "influences" in people's minds. (Marvin Minsky would explain this in terms of competing mental "agents.") If you are convinced the belief you are spreading is of monumental importance in saving the world, it is easy to discount ordinary social restraints--including legal ones.

In some small measure I have been touched by this process. In 1975 I was one of the people who founded the L-5 Society. It was, to put it mildly, an intense experience. We were spreading the meme that the Earth is not the only place people can live (in competition with the bummer Limits to Growth meme of that time). In intensity and the change it caused in the direction of people's lives, it may have compared to Scientology--though the people in it, came out of the experience in a lot better shape. At its peak it had perhaps 1/10th as many members. The "guru" position was not so clear either. Dr. O'Neill (from Princeton) was the originator of the idea, but there were several others who shared the stage, Dr. Peter Vijk, my former wife, Eric Drexler (who was only a sophomore when it started) and me to mention some of them.

There were similarities in that many of the people involved lived near the poverty line. There were differences in that we ate a lot better (raised a lot of rabbits in those days for meat.) The space colony meme did not result in nearly the level of interpersonal and group relations which flow from intense interactions of the kind described here in detail over the past few months. Nor did it include as part of the meme the kind of exploitative and abusive policies we see in the HCOBs.

Even at that, we had one incident which demonstrates the power of intense memes to alter behavior for the worse. A (formerly lawabiding) person was so taken with the meme that he *robbed a bank* with the idea in mind he would donate the proceeds to help fund a space colony project. (He got caught.)

>>But barring personal involvement (which in this case I happen to
>>But barring personal involvement (which in this case I happen to >>think is foolish) the group's actions are the way I judge it. And
>>think is foolish) the group's actions are the way I judge it. And >>we're not talking about a few misguided members here - the same lies
>>we're not talking about a few misguided members here - the same lies >>and misdeeds have been perpetrated for years now by the organization
>>and misdeeds have been perpetrated for years now by the organization >>as a whole. Individual members happily believe that absurd notion that
>>as a whole. Individual members happily believe that absurd notion that >>all critics are criminals.
>>all critics are criminals. >You're definitly not a prospect for the Bridge. If I had met you when
>You're definitly not a prospect for the Bridge. If I had met you when >I was on staff I'd have pleasantly offered you a cup of coffee and a
>I was on staff I'd have pleasantly offered you a cup of coffee and a >quick tour. I will still dispute the assertion that the organization
>quick tour. I will still dispute the assertion that the organization >"as a whole" is responsible for the acts of a few.
>"as a whole" is responsible for the acts of a few. The organization "as a whole" is involved with replicating the meme (or meme set) of Scientology. Part of the meme set is such items as "fair game," and related ideas about the "wogs" and "raw meat" outside of the fold, and the SPs who have left (or been driven out). The mental agents these memes build in believer's minds reduces the normal barriers to unsocial acts. A strong enough belief will allow people to kill, happens all the time. In deference to Godwin's law I will not mention another meme, but there *are* memes which we should actively discourage people from picking up.

> Not being an
> Not being an >individual, the organization has no identity nor does it have the same
>individual, the organization has no identity nor does it have the same >rights and responsibilities as an individual. That's why ars focus's
>rights and responsibilities as an individual. That's why ars focus's >on specific people -> Miscavige, LRH, Heber and specific actions ->
>on specific people -> Miscavige, LRH, Heber and specific actions -> >rpf, snow white, Grady Ward's mother. It is true that many members are
>rpf, snow white, Grady Ward's mother. It is true that many members are >uncertain of their commitment and find relief in the idea that CofS is
>uncertain of their commitment and find relief in the idea that CofS is >awash in a sea of SP's who's total intention is to enslave mankind and
>awash in a sea of SP's who's total intention is to enslave mankind and >destroy the planet. Get a few brews in that element of CofS (or for
>destroy the planet. Get a few brews in that element of CofS (or for >that matter any group which considers it's purpose divine) and I
>that matter any group which considers it's purpose divine) and I >assure you, the doubts are there.
>assure you, the doubts are there. *If* I parse this correctly, I think you are in essence agreeing with my contentions.

>> Until that's fixed, the "valid transactions" are nothing more
>> Until that's fixed, the "valid transactions" are nothing more >>than gilding on the proverbial turd.
>>than gilding on the proverbial turd. >As we used to say "you can't polish a turd", nor can CofS management
>As we used to say "you can't polish a turd", nor can CofS management >be excused for it's transgressions. OTOH, the transactions are the
>be excused for it's transgressions. OTOH, the transactions are the >basic mechanism of economics and those laws apply to CofS just as they
>basic mechanism of economics and those laws apply to CofS just as they >do to the rest of society.
>do to the rest of society. Economics is only one of several driving forces. Not to downplay its influence, but there are both genes and memes out there which have effects in the same order of magnitude. You certainly can't do an economic analysis of a person who blows themselves up from the front seat of a truck load of explosives, or for that matter sets off a truckload in front of a Federal building. I doubt it is any more a rational economic move for people to sell all they have and join the Sea Org.

In my estimation, the entire LRH creation is a meme based parasite, sapping human lives and accumulated capital like missal toe feeds off of oak trees. It may have largely burned through the susceptible part of the population. a.r.s may be a culture-wide immune response.

Keith Henson